Stuyvesant High School is considered by many to be the crown jewel of NYC public high schools (as well as one of the best in the state and the country). Though public, it is very hard to get accepted, with acceptance rates hovering in the kind of numbers that Ivy League colleges get). Stuy has been featured in documentaries and has name recognition in many places. When something happens at Stuy, people find out about it.

There was recently an article in the NY Times. https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrFNyyEAk1kBZoXyy1XNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZANDQVEyNTUyM0FfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1682797316/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.nytimes.com%2f2023%2f04%2f26%2fnyregion%2fswimming-debate-religion-nyc-schools.html/RK=2/RS=7jaoRt2Zz2hrUFprh5JLBqvnnVE- I apologize in advance but NYT doesn’t always let you see the stories for free

Here’s the gist of the article:

  1. Stuyvesant has a swimming requirement- to graduate with honors, you must take a swimming class.
  2. Last year Stuy cancelled “all girls” swimming classes because of scheduling and potential problems with the Education departments gender inclusion guidelines.
  3. Some of the Muslim girls worried- they cite religious reasons for modesty in dress, and fear their academic aspirations versus their religion

You get the picture?

What happens if your right to practice your religion butts up against inclusion rules?

I think this is sort of a chicken/egg thing- while we have the right to religious freedom, do we want to make things as equal and balanced for all and allow for religious tenets in a public school setting?

There are Muslim students in other NYC public high schools who are asking for prayer rooms. Is it fair to not allow students to practice their faith in a public school setting via a designated space? Is it fair for people who are not of the same faith to allow a room to be designated for religious purposes in a public school? Should all public schools have a prayer room so that those who do choose to practice a religion have a place to go during the school day?

Religious values vs Gender Inclusion:

Discuss:

58 thoughts on “Inclusion?”

  1. First- in 2023 a public school (no matter how prestigious it is) still adheres to an archaic rule that precludes being awarded an honor’s degree (which I see as academic, not athletic) unless a student passes swimming???? I really can’t get past this point.

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    1. They would say…we think it’s important and you don’t have to go here, there’s plenty of other kids who want the spot…but should schools have requirements? That’s another argument.

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      1. Well that, among other things would end it for me- actually I would never apply to have my child there so there’s that but…I don’t think I understand how a public school can have not only require whatever they want, but also the notion of the need to apply in the first place??? NYC clearly is very foreign to me. Kids here just go to the school they live by in their neighborhood. If they want to go somewhere else (public) I suppose there’s a process (?) but I seriously doubt any school official would give approval as every school is over crowded. Neighborhood kids get first place…

        Sorry I’m stuck on this concept but you have a unique public school system at least to me!

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      2. They also require more science and math credits than other high schools. The whole thing came about to make things more equitable. No student would be defined by their socioeconomic status or where they live or who they are. In theory, it gives school choice

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      4. Well, my daughter knows kids from upper middle backgrounds who are highly intelligent and attended Stuy and did well as far as college acceptance went, as well as highly intelligent middle income kids. She also knows immigrant kids whose parents worked 4 jobs each, where the kid was highly intelligent, went to study and then got full rides to really prestigious universities. Is it perfect!not even a little bit. Does it work sometimes? Yes

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  2. My university had a swimming test requirement. It was viewed as a safety measure sine the campus had bodies of water. I think there are usually solutions to these conflicts that don’t take too much effort. A multipurpose room that can function as a prayer room but also rest/meditation space sounds like a good thing for every school to have to me.

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    1. The schools are afraid to do that because of the whole prayer in schools debate…while the kids are free to pray, it’s a grey area as to whether dedicating a prayer room would meet guidelines

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  3. I’m with Deb, I can’t believe that swimming is such a deal breaker, but I guess the school has the right to set whatever entry requirements it deems appropriate, but I wonder how they’d justify the requirement.

    As for the equality/inclusion issue, here in the UK there is a requirement to provide a prayer room/quiet space if requested. We certainly have a prayer room on all our campuses. They are non-denominational and available for anyone who wishes to use them for prayer or quiet contemplation, meditation etc. I think in an educational environment recognising that students (and staff) can sometimes get stressed, a quiet room is a good thing.

    Regarding the cancellation of women only sessions … I guess the Education Dept/Board arebthinking of people that don’t identify on normal grounds of male/female? I’m not sure where I stand on this, and transgender rights are receiving a lot of attention in Scotland right now because the UK government blocked Scottish legislation and now the Scottish Government are taking them to court. Would it be possible for the girls to wear something less modest? But at the same time, why should they change their habits because of others.
    Equalities are never straightforward as we can impact on one group’s rights while trying to protect another’s. And by being inclusive, we could be marginalising others.

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  4. So what about students in wheelchairs? Are they just SOL when it comes to graduating with honors because they can’t swim? That’s what I’m catching on. Why is swimming required for an honors student?

    As for religion in schools… if you’re going to make allowances for Christian students (closing for Christmas or other religious holidays), then you need to make allowances for all your students’ religions. Or have zero religious allowances in schools and thus have no Christmas holiday or Easter holiday or anything like that.

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    1. Well, they don’t call in Christmas break…they call it winter break, so technically just because it falls on December 25th doesn’t mean it’s for the holiday…just a school break. And these schools don’t have a room for any prayer, regardless of religion, so do they want to open up that can of worms? I think they have accessible swimming for those who might need help…the school also has elevators and escalators and is to my knowledge fully compliant

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      2. I think if you make any religious exceptions for any student, then you have to make exceptions for all of them, regardless of their religion. If you give Christian students a break over their major holiday, then you shouldn’t make a fuss if Muslim students want to pray in the middle of the day, or if pagan students want to take off Samhain or Imbolc.

        But back to the swimming…. why is it even required for an honors student of any stripe? Just get rid of that requirement. Problem solved. You don’t need to be able to swim to be an artist or an engineer, so why be so stuck on this particular thing?

        Having grown up with the system where there is one high school in town, so that’s where you go”, the NYC public school system baffles me.

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      3. Anyone can pray. They just can’t designate a specific room to do it. And I’m all for getting rid of all holidays and making school year round with two weeks off at the quarter… the concept is to make things as equitable as possible. Every student in nyc regardless of socioeconomic stats or neighborhood has the same opportunity to go to the best schools. And that the problem with the swimming thing…these students chose Stuy, while there are three other exceptional tech high schools in the city, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech and Staten Island tech. Each of these schools are also top class and lead the city, state and country. None of these three have a swimming requirement, but the graduates all end up at top colleges many on scholarship

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      5. I’m trying to remember the story from when we toured it. Something about an alumnae who drowned or something…but that might be Columbia university which also has a swimming requirement (or did when my daughter toured in 2018)

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  5. I think the swimming requirement is a little odd, but if that’s what the school requires, so be it. Stuy is known as a great school. But the state of public education in this country is a national disgrace. Going to a school like Stuy is a privilege where education is still valued and pursued as well as demanded. In this day of equity, requirements are undervalued, as are results. For this school to maintain standards, to keep its reputation and to give value to its finished products, I have no problem with their keeping their requirements in place. In fact, it is pretty refreshing and offers some hope in the education system.

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  6. Oh boy, this one really gets to me and I can’t even put my finger on why. Trying to nail it down it’s that if you apply to a high school (or anywhere else), you ought to be prepared to comply with the requirements and expectations of the place that you CHOSE to be part of.

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    1. My daughters college has a core curriculum. Our friends son goes there and he complains about the core…I’m like he knew this going in. If he didn’t want a liberal arts core, why did he apply to the school?

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  7. Gender inclusion has gotten really difficult. It used to be that you could just say, “folks, y’all” or use a student name, but now it’s so specific and somewhat difficult when you’re teaching students because pronouns, dead names, and parts of social identity are ever-evolving and changing so professors tend to offend–at least I have last fall a couple times.

    I think that with the religion thing that the school, because it’s public, will have to have another PE requirement in lieu of swimming. I know that is cumbersome for sure and a heavy ask, but being inclusive of all cultures, religions, and ethnic identities has legal and civil rights overtones.

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    1. I remember touring the school and there’s some reason why it’s swimming as a pe requirement. But yeah…lots to think about

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      1. I’m sure… Safety–everyone should know how to be safe–and the whole body experience of exercise. I just think that they’ll have to have alternatives; otherwise, an OCR complaint can happen, which removes all funding if it’s founded.

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  9. The swimming requirement is very different. But then I guess you go into this knowing it, so you can’t really complain. It’s the parents choice to go elsewhere.

    The inclusion thing could get very complicated. I remember going to school and the focus was nothing else but education. Even though I’m a Christian, I don’t think students need prayer rooms or other special accommodations for any other religion. It has nothing to do with education. Pray at home or church. But go to school to get an education. There are schools for specific religions that people can choose. I don’t believe a public school should be making religious accommodations.

    Nor do I think it’s a place for gender inclusion. But that’s a whole other subject I could voice a lot of thoughts on.

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  10. Palm Springs High School had a swimming requirement which was a PE credit. The city pool is adjacent to the pool and I think it’s a partnership facility between the two. The requirement went away before my kids were in high school. As for the Muslims not swimming because of modesty, in all the major swim catalogues there are suits made specifically for Muslim women.

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      1. It is interesting to me that being familiar with schools in the UAE that when many American teachers went overseas for the Educational Reform, we respected their traditions and culture including being more conservatively dressed. Since we were in their country, we respected the laws.

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      3. Some American teachers did buy suits made for Muslim women. Many, including myself, did not but we were not required-only to dress conservatively. However, the UAE is one of the most adaptable Middle Eastern Country and has a high influx of international visitors, like Manhattan.

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  12. This is an interesting debate. My sister-in-law, who is a public school teacher, said she disagreed that Muslim students have to be given time and a place to pray during the school day because there is no place for religion in a public school system. While I understand this is an uncomfortable conversation for a so-called Christian country—let’s be honest, there are very few practising Christians these days—I don’t believe we have the right to tell people they can’t practise their religion. I think the challenge comes about when non-practising Muslims…or people of any faith…use prayer as an excuse to get out of class.

    Not an easy problem to solve.

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  13. This whole argument makes my head hurt! But the bottom line is, we have too many people thinking about only what they want and deserve these days. That doesn’t always work in a community setting, like a high school.

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    1. The problem has become, in insuring person A has the right to do something, someone else will be affected adversely. Who decides which rights are more important

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  15. “To graduate with honors, you must take a swimming class” is weird to me. What’s that all about?

    Prayer rooms? Go for it. I oftentimes have to tell people that praying in school isn’t illegal; students can do whatever they want (teachers cannot lead prayer), and if there’s a prayer room, then all the better.

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    1. Praying is school is ok…the specific room isn’t. It comes down to whether or not space should be allocated for prayer as no religion in public schools. Then it’s what grades should have this. Then, does this space need to be supervised (do we want middle or high schoolers alone in a room for practical purposes) and in nyc there is a space issue, so is that the best use of a room…

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